Curse

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 07, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Don't nerf Illusion of Haste.

It's not the problem, IoP is.

IoP is a much bigger issue I don't disagree, you can't claim that Illusion of Haste isn't ridiculously powerful though. A permanent 33% IMS that can remove cripple every 5 seconds (on average 4 if you use a staff for it or more like 3 if you use a 40/40 set) is pretty insane, especially since it only costs 5e and the 'drawback' of causing cripple on end has been diminished to 3s cripple (1s after rune and shield).

Basically Illusion of Haste and Featherfoot Grace essentially make the Crippled condition (from any source) almost completely ineffective on top of providing a permanent speedboost. I don't understand how people think that this is fine..

Kaon · Oct 07, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

It is very easy, provided your monks and midline are coordinated.

And this is where you are sadly wrong. Let's assume you're running the flag with 2 hexremovals behind you. The water ele snares you with freezing gust, and because your monks are paying attention and superquick they manage to remove the hex before the ele can cover it. Realistically this of course won't ever happen but let's assume it does. Then the water ele uses shard storm, and tries to cover it again. Again let's assume the monk is the son of god himself and remove the hex before the cover. Then the water ele still has a THIRD snare up his sleeve he can use to snare the target. By the time that's run out freezing gust is recharged and so is shard storm.

He will be able to snare up against many hex removals indefinately. When hexes become immune to hex removal, shit is overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

As I said in the other thread on qq about this, freezing gust and water eles in general are balanced (except for mirror of ice, which I will address shortly) in the fact that, while they carry really powerful snares, the characters that they are brought to snare are also ridiculously powerful. Could you imagine trying to deal with some kind of super mobile split without freezing gust being in the game? It'd be close to impossible because there are so many things keeping splits from having so much mobility, survivability, and damage. Water ele snares need to be powerful to keep up with the power creep of the things they are brought to stop.

You speak sense, but didn't we establish ages ago that buffing counters is a terrible aproach to skillbalance? Even so, splits rarely carry hex removal, so long lasting long recharge hexes are perfectly fine with dealing against this. Not the supercheap supershort recharge hexes we have right now. Ice prison is a perfect example of a great skill. I think shard storm on it's own is alright too because it's dodgeable, but freezing gust and winter's embrace. Please...

Quote:

I do agree that water eles are a bit too powerful in general, but not because of freezing gust. Mirror of ice is the thing making them way too good. They fulfill their role as a snarebot, but then ALSO fulfill a role of a super high damage spiker. The two combined is too powerful. They need to have powerful snares to keep splits in check. They shouldn't be super spikers. MoI is the problem, not freezing gust.

Mirror of ice is absolutely retarded and broken. But i'm trying to concentrate this topic on something more easily over looked yet equally broken.

On cripshot:

Cripshot is an elite attack skill that requires line of sight and only deals a condition. Do I really have to explain how incredibly superior water snares really are?

~ Dan ~ · Oct 07, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

I see your name befits you.

Made me lol.

Jensy · Oct 07, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

But like lutz said, shouldn't your midline be working on shutting down the ele instead of having everything get piled down on your monks? I don't know how things normally work in a BYOB, but it goes to think that you'd at least have someone on interrupt duty. If not, well then that's not really the fault of the water hexes in question.

That's not to say that I don't agree with them being strong. Just that if there aren't players working to counter it... of course it's going to seem impossible to play against o_o Granted, I'm new to GvG, so feel free to tell me why this is wrong, provided you actually explain why and don't just send me back to riverside :P

I Angra I · Oct 07, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

You speak sense, but didn't we establish ages ago that buffing counters is a terrible aproach to skillbalance? Even so, splits rarely carry hex removal, so long lasting long recharge hexes are perfectly fine with dealing against this. Not the supercheap supershort recharge hexes we have right now. Ice prison is a perfect example of a great skill. I think shard storm on it's own is alright too because it's dodgeable, but freezing gust and winter's embrace. Please...

Mirror of ice is absolutely retarded and broken. But i'm trying to concentrate this topic on something more easily over looked yet equally broken.

I don't disagree that freezing gust/winter's embrace are ridiculously powerful snares that should be nerfed, and that direct counters are bad for the game, but I'd just be worried about nerfing snares before nerfing the things they are brought to counter. If that happens I could see a time period between skill updates (two months lol wtf ridiculous zzz) of splits running rampant and no one being able to do much about them, and it turning into a fire ele/iop-fest with nothing to stop it other than more fire eles and iops. Ideally they could be nerfed in the same update, but knowing that's a 1 in a million chance, I'd prefer snares to at least be nerfed after superpowered split templates.

Also on the subject of having infinite snares to force boosts: making MoI unviable I think would partially fix that as well. Like I said in my earlier post, if you remove MoI, the water ele needs something else on the bar to contribute damage if its being used. Thus taking out winter's embrace for rust, or bringing shatterstone and either having no energy at all to use it after snaring the hell out of someone, or not having the energy to snare the hell out of someone from earlier shatterstone use.

lutz · Oct 07, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

And this is where you are sadly wrong. Let's assume you're running the flag with 2 hexremovals behind you. The water ele snares you with freezing gust, and because your monks are paying attention and superquick they manage to remove the hex before the ele can cover it. Realistically this of course won't ever happen but let's assume it does. Then the water ele uses shard storm, and tries to cover it again. Again let's assume the monk is the son of god himself and remove the hex before the cover. Then the water ele still has a THIRD snare up his sleeve he can use to snare the target. By the time that's run out freezing gust is recharged and so is shard storm.

He will be able to snare up against many hex removals indefinately. When hexes become immune to hex removal, shit is overpowered.

So having 3 hexes makes you immune to hex removal?
All builds with 3 hexes on their bar must be nerfed, then.

It's pretty simple. Remove the big purple arrow. Hit the water ele. Yay!

Of course, I'm not saying that Mirror of Ice is balanced - in fact, I think it's pretty stupid right now, since it gives water a huge spike capability, but you're really overexaggerating the snare capabilities of a water ele. Snares are good, but there are ways for standard builds to stop them reliably and easily without sacrificing too much. The whole spike damage capability issue is something else, though. (also, maybe your monks aren't paying attention, but most teams don't have absolute failures of monks)

Winter's Embrace isn't really that good anyway.

Kaon · Oct 07, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

So having 3 hexes makes you immune to hex removal?
All builds with 3 hexes on their bar must be nerfed, then.

It's pretty simple. Remove the big purple arrow. Hit the water ele. Yay!

Of course, I'm not saying that Mirror of Ice is balanced - in fact, I think it's pretty stupid right now, since it gives water a huge spike capability, but you're really overexaggerating the snare capabilities of a water ele. Snares are good, but there are ways for standard builds to stop them reliably and easily without sacrificing too much. The whole spike damage capability issue is something else, though. (also, maybe your monks aren't paying attention, but most teams don't have absolute failures of monks)

Winter's Embrace isn't really that good anyway.

What's your point? I just said snares are unstoppable and you're completely evading me, except for your statement that "standard builds can stop them reliably." Is that the old "diversion it and it's balanced" argument? We are talking extremely powerful removal proof hexes here. Yes that's overpowered.

Snow Bunny · Oct 07, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

IoP is a much bigger issue I don't disagree, you can't claim that Illusion of Haste isn't ridiculously powerful though. A permanent 33% IMS that can remove cripple every 5 seconds (on average 4 if you use a staff for it or more like 3 if you use a 40/40 set) is pretty insane, especially since it only costs 5e and the 'drawback' of causing cripple on end has been diminished to 3s cripple (1s after rune and shield).

Basically Illusion of Haste and Featherfoot Grace essentially make the Crippled condition (from any source) almost completely ineffective on top of providing a permanent speedboost. I don't understand how people think that this is fine..

It's in a traditionally neglected attribute line.

Nerf IoP and there won't be reasons to run splittable mesmers anymore.

lutz · Oct 07, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

What's your point? I just said snares are unstoppable and you're completely evading me, except for your statement that "standard builds can stop them reliably." Is that the old "diversion it and it's balanced" argument? We are talking extremely powerful removal proof hexes here. Yes that's overpowered.

My point is that they are not unstoppable, and standard builds can stop them reliably and effectively without sacrificing much.

They're not remove-proof.

Kaon · Oct 07, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

They're not remove-proof.

Ah, so you're just contradicting me. Explain.

lutz · Oct 07, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Ah, so you're just contradicting me. Explain.

Option #1: Interrupt just 1 out of the 3 snares through Holy Veil. (applicable: midline is with you for push)
Option #2: Put Holy Veil on your flagger 6 seconds before he arrives. (applicable: 2 monks + flagger)
Option #3: Hit the water ele with damage. (applicable: midline + possibly frontline with you during flag push)
Option #4: Remove 2 hexes and run past the water ele. (applicable: 2 monks + flagger)
Option #5: Use those other hex removals that you might have. (Empathic) (applicable: if you have off-monk hex removal)

MaaKotka · Oct 07, 2009, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Option #1: Interrupt just 1 out of the 3 snares through Holy Veil. (applicable: midline is with you for push)
Option #2: Put Holy Veil on your flagger 6 seconds before he arrives. (applicable: 2 monks + flagger)
Option #3: Hit the water ele with damage. (applicable: midline + possibly frontline with you during flag push)
Option #4: Remove 2 hexes and run past the water ele. (applicable: 2 monks + flagger)
Option #5: Use those other hex removals that you might have. (Empathic) (applicable: if you have off-monk hex removal)

What he said.

First tone offense down, then tone red bars up skills down and then tone utility defese down.

Better yet, tone everything down at once but that's not gonna happen ever. Not atleast without major screw ups.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 07, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's in a traditionally neglected attribute line.

Nerf IoP and there won't be reasons to run splittable mesmers anymore.

Nerf Featherfoot Grace and Mindblasters will switch to this.

Illusion actually isn't such a bad line, it has good snares and Distortion.

Kaon · Oct 07, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Option #1: Interrupt just 1 out of the 3 snares through Holy Veil. (applicable: midline is with you for push)

Yes interrupting is always on option (although you have to interrupt 3 skills which is a hell of a lot) but it goes beside my point of the snares being uncounterable with hex removal. Everything can be countered by interrupts except stances.

Quote:

Option #2: Put Holy Veil on your flagger 6 seconds before he arrives. (applicable: 2 monks + flagger)

- Freezing gust gets removed by veil
- Winters embrace goes up, blurred vision comes up instantly.
- Winters embrace stays on (which means target is snared) or cover gets removed + snare by the 2 recharged hex removes.
- Shard storm goes up. Runner is now snared with all hex removes in recharge.

The preveil only gives you a few extra seconds inwhich the ele has to spend time casting snares so the runner is clear very briefly. When this 2-3 second period ends the target is completely snared and glued to the ground.

Quote:

Option #3: Hit the water ele with damage. (applicable: midline + possibly frontline with you during flag push)

This argument does not adress my statement just like #1, nonetheless I will counter it:

The water ele has a monk with him. Which is true in 99% of the cases in actual gvg, unless the opponent is really bad at the game.

Quote:

Option #4: Remove 2 hexes and run past the water ele. (applicable: 2 monks + flagger)

What? Just use the third snare?

Quote:

Option #5: Use those other hex removals that you might have. (Empathic) (applicable: if you have off-monk hex removal)

Note: So we need to carry well over 3 hex removals to take care of water eles? Ridiculous. In any case lets theorycraft how many we might need.

Freezing gust, remove #1
Shard Storm + cover, remove #2 and #3
Winter's embrace + cover, remove #4 and #5
Freezing gust is recharged, remove #6

In reality you'll probably be able to pull it off with 4 removes if there are no other snares or hexes in the area, but I still think that's quite a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing ridiculous amount.

Your move. Now you can come up with a new argument that will blow my mind and prove your point, or you can accept that water snares are absolutely out of whack.

lutz · Oct 07, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Yes interrupting is always on option (although you have to interrupt 3 skills which is a hell of a lot) but it goes beside my point of the snares being uncounterable with hex removal. Everything can be countered by interrupts except stances.

- Freezing gust gets removed by veil
- Winters embrace goes up, blurred vision comes up instantly.
- Winters embrace stays on (which means target is snared) or cover gets removed + snare by the 2 recharged hex removes.
- Shard storm goes up. Runner is now snared with all hex removes in recharge.

The preveil only gives you a few extra seconds inwhich the ele has to spend time casting snares so the runner is clear very briefly. When this 2-3 second period ends the target is completely snared and glued to the ground.

This argument does not adress my statement just like #1, nonetheless I will counter it:

The water ele has a monk with him. Which is true in 99% of the cases in actual gvg, unless the opponent is really bad at the game.

What? Just use the third snare?

Note: So we need to carry well over 3 hex removals to take care of water eles? Ridiculous. In any case lets theorycraft how many we might need.

Freezing gust, remove #1
Shard Storm + cover, remove #2 and #3
Winter's embrace + cover, remove #4 and #5
Freezing gust is recharged, remove #6

In reality you'll probably be able to pull it off with 4 removes if there are no other snares or hexes in the area, but I still think that's quite a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing ridiculous amount.

Your move. Now you can come up with a new argument that will blow my mind and prove your point, or you can accept that water snares are absolutely out of whack.

Your post doesn't make any sense.

Re-read my post. You only need to interrupt one out of three snares.

If the water ele can cover his snare through Holy Veil, then your monks are just really bad. Also remember, if he Blurs you, Freezing Gust doesn't work anymore.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 07, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Kaon your monk(s) are terrible if you allow 2/3 snares to get covered before removing them.

Also, you can Divert and Dshot snares so they're fine!

I Jonas I · Oct 07, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

kinda hard to D shot snares when you're blurred and the water ele has guardian, which against good teams both of those things will probably happen. and no one runs mesmers anymore so don't act like that's an option, either.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 07, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

kinda hard to D shot snares when you're blurred and the water ele has guardian, which against good teams both of those things will probably happen. and no one runs mesmers anymore so don't act like that's an option, either.

I see the average guru poster is still oblivious to the concept of sarcasm..

luminoth · Oct 07, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

I'm pretty sure we run a mesmer! But yeah, playing MoI ele vs dual paraspike is just useless, as they have a million hex removals. I've seen one guild even run Aegis, so snaring their flagger was impossible.
However, vs. anything that's not dual para, these snares are overpowered. Although I think Freezin Gust is fine, as you actually have to think while using it, Winter's Embrace is completely out of check. It's fairly easy to outfake a ranger with it, as it's 5e and 3/4th cast.
Also, enchant removals (strip/rend) rape water eles, as you can remove all enchantments every 20 seconds.

I Jonas I · Oct 07, 2009, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I see the average guru poster is still oblivious to the concept of sarcasm..

that wasn't a direct response to your post, just a statement of fact.

Also: I went AFK in the process of replying to this thread and didn't see your post at all until after I hit reply.